Thursday, February 18, 2016

A Christian Response to MGTOW


Last night in our midweek meeting I did a short study in our current series on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood titled "A Christian Response to MGTOW" [listen to the audio here].  This message follows up a previous one in the series on "A Christian Response to Feminism" [see this post].

In the opening I attempted to answer, "What is MGTOW?"  Here are the first few paragraphs:

The acronym MGTOW stands for “Men Going Their Own Way.”

It is a loose way of speaking about a small but emerging group of men in Western society who are increasingly choosing to live without women in their lives and, for some, with as little contact with anyone else, men or women, as possible.

MGTOW can in some ways be described as part of the modern Men’s Movement, a reaction against the rise of feminism and which some believe has led to reactionary and unjust discrimination against men and masculinity.

The MGTOW movement largely exists as a cyber or virtual community.  Those who are part of the movement communicate with each other via social media, in various forums which some have dubbed the “manosphere.”


The movement is, by nature, hard to define and there are men who would identify with the movement at various levels.

I have also posted to sermonaudio.com the pdf of my full notes for this message [find the pdf here].

JTR


29 comments:

Bill R said...

Here's a response to your sermon...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYjX7zBQYs4

Pastor Jeff said...

Bill R,

Thanks for the link. I will try to listen to the video. I know there are several responses to the message out there.

JTR

Anonymous said...

Some things to consider:

How can men who identify as MGTOW have a sense of community with a society that exploits them in all the ways you listed in your sermon? You said these things are punishment for sin, but also said men and women sin equally, so why are only men punished?

You also mentioned the idea of someone being there to help a man up when he falls; today's woman won't help her man up, she will simply move on to the next man who she already has lined up just in case. You cannot realistically ask for binding commitment and loyalty in return for being discarded the moment something better comes along.

Pastor Jeff said...

Anon,

Thanks for your comment. Here are some responses:

1. How can men who identity as MGTOW find community in a society that exploits them?

Granted, we live in a fallen world in which both men and women are sometimes (perhaps, in some cases, even often) treated unjustly.

In the talk, I noted three spheres where one may find genuine community: (1) in the home/family; (2) in the church; and (3) in society. Obviously, one cannot find true fellowship in sphere (2) unless he is a Christian. And I would argue that he will also not find genuine contentment in spheres (1) or (3) unless he is a believer.

I know that some have taken offense at my charge that MGTOW distances men from real community. At least one person has challenged me by saying that MGTOW does, in fact, provide a cyber-community for men in this movement, many of whom have been hurt by toxic encounters with women. Communication by internet/email can be helpful (even as we are now conversing) but it cannot replace face to face community. I worry that MGTOW can isolate already vulnerable men and provide a pseudo-community that reinforces bitterness and resentment. To any who have dabbled in MGTOW philosophy I simply ask that he consider the claims of Biblical Christianity, particularly with regard to manhood and womanhood. Discernment is certainly necessary when it come to churches and teachers. I would encourage any who are genuinely curious to consider a conservative, Reformed Christian perspective on Biblical manhood and womanhood. Go to sermonaudio.com and do some searching for sermons and teaching on these topics. Find a conservative church in your area. Most of these churches are small and would welcome any contact from an outsider. A conservative Reformed church will welcome any person who is genuinely seeking and will provide community and care to any who are willing to listen and learn, even if they are not professed believers.

2. You asked, "why are only men punished" for sin?

A full answer would require teaching on a Biblical theology of sin. It would begin in Genesis 1-2 with humanity in a pre-fall (pre-sin) state. Then, in Genesis 3, both men and women fell into sin through our first parents, Adam and Eve. From them we inherit a sin nature, exacerbated by our own commission of actual transgressions.

Both men and women suffer the results of sin. Not men alone. Not women alone. The Christian faith centers on the belief that men and women can have their fallen lives changed by faith in Christ. While we (men and women) were still sinners, Christ died for us (Rom 5:8).

3. Who can help a man up?

In a Christian marriage, a man can help his wife when she stumbles and she can help him in turn (See Ephesians 5:22-33).

In a Christian church, a brother or sister can help a brother who falls. The apostle Paul commanded, "Bear one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ" (Galatians 6:2). We are, of course, in the church because Christ himself has helped us up, when we were in need.

In society, Jesus taught that we are to love our neighbor as ourselves. A Christian seeks the good of his neighbor whether that person is a believer or not.

Again, thanks for the comment. Hope this helps.

Anonymous said...

One of my favorite movies is Independence Day. After the character Will Smith plays captures one of the aliens, it communicates with the President by telekinesis telling him that they are on our planet to suck all of the resources out of it and once they have what they need, they'll move on to the next planet.

This is a basic word picture of marriage today, whether in the church or out of it. Women, in general, see men as nothing more than a resource to steal their needs from. The laws of our society are stacked against them. At some point she realizes she no longer needs HIM, she just needs his RESOURCES and pulls out taking everything THEY have acquired together and leaving him destitute. Don't tell me it doesn't happen.....it happened to me.

I am re-married but my current wife's pride is the only real reason she stays. She doesn't want to have to grovel back to her life long friends and hear "I told you he wasn't the right one". She's irritated with me and our entire situation most of the time.....she rarely resembles a woman of God, much less a Proverbs 31 wife. I can't be right about anything, even when I say "I'm never right" she'll say "that's not true".....as one of my favorite comedians would say "THERE'S YER SIGGGGNNNN".

Marriage today is a total joke and I don't recommend it to ANY young man. I tell any of them that will listen to not marry under any circumstance. It's simply not a viable option for men anymore. You have far more to lose than you have to gain.

Rich said...

There are multitudes of verses that speak to it being a perfectly valid way for a man to not marry, and do the will of Christ, and actually do it better because he isn't divided. It is a shame you fail to see it, and I seriously doubt have any set of advice for any Christian men who can't find a wife, and are still single. All you will push is "man up". As a man in his late 40s, who has never been married (was I to marry one of several women I knew who came down with STDs, one of which was AIDS?), I see there is NOTHING out there at all for me to master this life, and find peace, and holiness. No, it is just wait for the wife to show up. The wife is supposed to fix everything. It is seek first the wife, and all the rest will be added unto you... Wait, I thought that was supposed to be The Kingdom, but it is a wife.

Single ministries in churches aren't training grounds for mastering being single. They are dating services that are supposed to just throw singles together and they marry. That is how things are done, right down to volleyball being a sacrament.

Until you can see the growing need to address men who don't marry and help them walk in the will of Christ in a way that fits them personally, you are not even going to get close to understanding what is happening around MGTOW. And for you to throw the "selfish" label at them, is to really miss what is going on.

And with this, I am doing a YouTube channel, as an untrained layman (with no Bible college), to at least get some out there, with my hack skills, for the lack of anyone else doing it. How can I say there is a lack of resources? Well, I have seen men's ministries and also single's ministries, but I find none for single men. Nope, they all want to "marry up" so they can have a lot of sex, and their sex drive would suddenly not be sinful, or so it goes. Apparently, the only ones who shouldn't marry (as per Paul in Corinthians) is those who have low sex drives. Anyone else, as per your sermon, must be "selfish".

Pastor Jeff said...

Anon,

Sorry to hear of problems you've experienced. There is no doubt that our own sin and the sin of others does damage. As a Christian, however, I believe there is hope that comes through faith in Christ and obedience to his Word.

JTR

Pastor Jeff said...

Rich,

There is, of course, nothing sinful (for men or for women) about remaining single. Everyone (even those who eventually marry) will be single (in the unmarried state) for at least some time in their lives. Many (mostly women who will outlive their husbands) will also be single when their spouses die. We might even say that according to orthodox Christianity the ultimate state at the final resurrection will be singleness where there will neither be marriage nor giving in marriage (cf. Matt 22:30). Paul was intentionally single but he also recognize that this would not be every man's "gift" (see 1 Cor 7:1-7, especially v. 7). Jesus himself, of course, was also single. Neither Jesus not Paul, however, were men going their own way. They did not demonize women but affirmed them and the institution of marriage (for Jesus see Matthew 19:1-6; for Paul see Ephesians 5:22-33).

I agree with you that the church in its zeal to teach and encourage the Biblical institution of marriage has sometime neglected the needs and interests of singles (both men and women). There are some (like Paul) who count singleness as a gift. There are others, however, who are single and who desire to marry but who have not found a fitting partner. We should not treat the unmarried as second class citizens or teach that one must be married to be fulfilled. True fulfillment comes in Christ, regardless of one's marital status.

We should encourage our single Christian brothers and sisters. But we should humbly teach that MGTOW is a sub-Christian lifestyle in that, among other things, it demonizes women and diminishes marriage.

JTR

Pedat Ebediyah said...

Part I

Pastor Jeff,

I will show charity and declare that I believe you meant well with this subject. Unfortunately, your mistake was a woeful lack of knowledge here.

Pastor, I respectfully ask that you consider curbing any discussion about MGTOW until you have done more research and have examined the true rationale for such a lifestyle. In fact, I'd encourage you to consider removing your video on this subject until you have the empathy and credibility to refute the choice.

I say this because you have caused Christian men to stumble, you have improperly rightly divided the word of truth by taking scriptures out of context, and you, FOUR TIMES bore false witness against MGTOW.

1. MGTOW do not encourage men to avoid having children in a effort to avoid having female offspring.

2. MGTOW do not advocate a complete separation from society. Only the TOXIC elements of society (in our case, western society) which promotes (unchallenged) the following: misandry (the HATRED of men, it's NOT discrimination), feminism, gynocentrism, hypoagency, solipsism, complementarianism (ergo...egalitarianism) marxism, and statism.

3. MGTOW is NOT the rejection of Biblical and Godly roles of men and women in society!!! MGTOW is response to the LACK of this understanding (ESPECIALLY in the Christian Church!!!!!)

4. MGTOW (especially Christian ones) are not whoremongers and fornicators. Most are celibate. Most desire committed monagamous relationships with a woman who is not spiritually or morally bankrupt, who joyfully embraces her role as a respectful, submitted help-meet. The problem is that Christian churches neither teach nor hold women accountable for their categorical rejection of this mandatory Biblical requirement. So, we MUST go our own way, sir!

Pedat Ebediyah said...

Part II


Marriage 2.0 is being taught and practiced in the Body of Christ THE SAME WAY it's being embraced in the world of the unbeliever. https://societyofphineas.wordpress.com/2015/08/15/repost-marriage-1-0-vs-marriage-2-0/

And because Marriage 2.0 is the course of the day in the Body of Christ, it is UNWISE for any devout man of Christ to get involved with it.

The Christian man (and especially the unbeliever) has NO ADVOCATE in this world NOR in the Church.

In fact it's beyond MGTOW. You should perhaps truly understand the Red Pill, because more DEVOUT Christian men subscribe to the Red Pill praxeology than they go MGTOW.

I suggest you abandon and retract any and all statements concerning MGTOW, and instead study The Red Pill FIRST and then you'll see where men are coming from. The very FIRST thing you need to read is The Misandry Bubble. Misandry and (Hypoagency/gynocentrism) are the defacto ideals practiced in the Church, and the world.

Read it: http://puerarchy.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/TheFuturist_TheMisandryBubble.pdf

Then study DEVOUT Christian men who are Red Pill. (They teach what NO Christian preacher or church in America teaches men what a godly husband should expect and embrace in this life).

Dalrock - https://dalrock.wordpress.com/ Dalrock is the de facto voice for Christian men who love the Lord, but hate the toxicity that has DESTROYED the Christian marriage and family. I'd suggest spending as much time here is you possibly can.

Deepstrength - https://deepstrength.wordpress.com/

Cane Caldo - https://canecaldo.wordpress.com/

Empath - https://empathological.wordpress.com/

The Society of Phineas - https://societyofphineas.wordpress.com/ (If you are not a true student of the Word, his posts will challenge you)

Donal - https://donalgraeme.wordpress.com/


Then finally, there is Rollo. Rollo is a believer, but he doesn't Blog from that POV. The Rational Male is inclusive of ALL men who despise this toxic and ungodly state. He speaks to believers, unbelievers, atheists, agnostics..the whole gamut. He talks about Red Pill game. In short, relationships with women must be "managed" in such a way to keep her sinful, solipsistic, and untoward nature in check, BECAUSE no entity (Body of Christ NOR the State) gives them ANY incentive or direction or expect them to be reliable moral agents. If a man wants to be involved with a woman, he has to understand this nature, and respond to it effectively in order to have longevity and harmony in his marriage or relationship with women.

Rollo Tomassi - http://therationalmale.com/

Illimitable Men - http://illimitablemen.com/ (His philosophy and contributions to men in this day and age timeless). Read the Red Pill Constitution. (http://illimitablemen.com/archives/understanding-the-red-pill/red-pill-constitution/)

When you understand the Red Pill, you'll understand MGTOWs, MRA's, PUA's and so on and so on...they are all motivated by DIFFERENT ideals, but are all united because they have the veil lifted from their eyes as it concerns the wickedness of this age, where the daughters of Eve have usurped God's order in the world.

In all due respect, Pastor, I ask the you do these things first before speaking further on the matter.

Pastor Jeff said...

PE,

Responses to Part I:

Thanks for assuming my well meant intentions and for the encouragement to learn more. I am open to this and will learn more as time allows. However, I stand by the comments made in my presentation. Pastors are generalists, meaning we must be prepared to any general questions or issues that arise. My purpose was not in the 25 minutes presentation to offer an academic survey of the MGTOW movement but to offer a general Christian response. I stand by my central thesis that MGTOW is not compatible with a Christian worldview.

As for the four accusations of false witness:

1. I do not believe I said this was the sentiment of all MGTOW but of some (or at least one) I heard on a MGTOW themed video.

2. Again, I do not think I said this of all but of some (or at least one) I heard on a MGTOW themed video

BTW: Regarding these first two, can you prove that absolutely no MGTOW hold either of these views? If so, how would you prove that given you do not have universal knowledge of all MGTOWs?

3. I disgree. I believe MGTOW is an anti-Christian worldview.

4. Again, I did not say this about all but some (in this case, I would even say "many" if not "most" I have heard on youtube). Ever listen to "Sandman" for example?

See comments above on 1 and 2.

JTR

Pastor Jeff said...

PE,

Responses to Part II:

Your rejection of marriage here is an example of what I would say is an unbiblical and sub-Christian worldview.

Granted, sin has warped both men and women and hurt the institution of marriage but it can and is being redeemed through Christ.

Thanks for the links and suggestions. I will try to look at these as time permits.

Pastors are generalists, meaning we must be able to respond to any general question which come to us. My c. 25 minutes presentation on MGTOW was not meant to an exhaustive scholarly treatment but a general, pastoral response. I stand by the material in the presentation but am always open to learn more.

Thanks again, JTR

Pedat Ebediyah said...

Thanks for responding Pastor...

In the spirit of eliminating strife, I'll leave you with the material to ponder so that when inveighing against any ideology, you'll be able to do so more cogently and accurately.

You wrote:

"BTW: Regarding these first two, can you prove that absolutely no MGTOW hold either of these views? If so, how would you prove that given you do not have universal knowledge of all MGTOWs?"

Instead of being disrespectful to you Pastor, I'll show you some grace here. What you just presented is the Logical Fallacy known is "argumentum ad ignorantiam" (Negative Proof, Appeal to Ignorance). Its a form of sophistry.

MGTOW fundamentally means to unplug the sooty elements from elements that oppress men..(which you should already know, and will know more fully after you have gleaned from the resources I provided. Right now, you are speaking out of turn, and as a Pastor, should be exponentially more Berean than that.)

How individual MGTOW choose to unplug is up to them, some of whom whose choices are more expedient than others, but it's their choice especially if they formerly, in good faith believed in and committed themselves to their families (wives and children).

Your real concern should be for the multitude of upright, repentant, committed followers of our Master who are opting out. For men like them it's not expedient or wise in any context to engage in a covenant relationship with someone who is not culpable (by Church or state) for their role and responsibility to said covenant. That is unBiblical it's called guarding and protecting your heart with all diligence, living circumspectly and redeeming your time in this evil age.

Now...to answer your question (negative proof) - of course not. Are all white conservative southern baptists white supremacists? No, but a majority of them are. Are all feminists misandrists? No, but most of them are. Are all police officers corrupt? No, but far too many of them are. Is the entire non-white (Africans of unknown descent..ie..blacks) population suffering from a victimization mentality? No, but a large majority do. Do all so-called Christian preachers practice and teach lawlessness? No. But the majority of them do.

Yes there are MGTOW that speak ill of marriage, choose to isolate themselves from mostly women (and some society altogether), and yes there are some who are isolationists, and yes there are a great many who are not followers of our Master. That doesn't make it an unbiblical or "sub-Christian" worldview. It's a choice that men have made to shield themselves from the last 3 generations of saved and unsaved women who are categorically niggardly in their commitment and devotion to their husbands, their marriages, their families and to the higher calling of Christ.

What man (especially devout follower of our Master) would be so pathetic and simple and foolish to yoke up with such when HE (the man) is fully held culpable and liable by the Body of Christ, enforced by the State, while his counterpart is not?

As a Pastor, you should seek to raise up (rather resurrect) the lack of Titus 2 and Proverbs 31 women in the Church who truly love the Lord, accept his law, commandment, statute, and charge concerning their obligation to, without grudge, offer unconditional respect and submission to their husbands, and then discerning and wise men will change their tune.

As far as unbelieving MGTOW are concerned, their grievances are not those of Christ following red pill men (or MGTOW). THIS should be your primary concern.

I know exactly, to the letter, what a husband and father is supposed to be doing for himself, for his family, and for Christ. The majority of women (saved or unsaved) do not, nor do they have the incentive (in the Body or by the state) to walk in their reciprocal role in that regard.

Shalom, Pastor.

Pastor Jeff said...

PE,

Thanks for your comment.

My "BTW" comment was simply to point out the fact that you misrepresented my comments. In my message I did not say things like: "All MGTOWs believe ....." but things like, "I have heard some MGTOWs say...." I stand by my comments.

You also make universal and unverifiable statements, which continue in this post (e.g., the majority of white southern baptists are racists, etc.).

I do care about the men and women in my congregation and am endeavoring by God's grace to shepherd and teach them. I believe that both feminism and MGTOW are in contradiction to a Biblical worldview.

Again, thanks for the interaction and I will try to get to the reading you suggested and will post on this as time allows. I have had in mind some posts with titles like "Was Jesus MGTOW?" and "Was Paul MGTOW?" We'll see....

JTR

Pedat Ebediyah said...

Part I

Sure thing Pastor...

Why did you focus on my sentiments about southern Baptists? It wasn't directed at you personally. I was using an example of what I've seen preached and taught and emoted in both the saved and unsaved population of those who call themselves Christians.

As far as continuing to explore MGTOW outside of grasping how it is influenced by Red Pill praxeology, it wouldn't be circumspect of you, sir.

One might merely focus on Christian men and how the body of Christ has allowed modernity, feminism, and gynocentrism to subvert Father Yahweh's order for marriage. Judgment should begin in the HOUSE of the Lord. There are men who are MGTOW who don't label themselves as such. Some are "confirmed bachelors". They are not fornicators or whoremongers either. They just realize, like I (ME) have that finding a woman who loves the Lord with all of her heart and soul and strength with just as much fervor as I (they) do is an exercise in futility, because AGAIN (and you have not addressed this..their local fellowships aren't teaching them and holding them accountable for such things.

So, while you say that MGTOW is unscriptural, you haven't stated why you feel that way. So ignore the term. I don't reject the term "MGTOW" because I get it. I get why men are going their own way. But what's more telling is why men who are Christ followers are going their own way. What would you tell a woman who complained that the men in her sphere of influence seem indifferent to the whole thing? I know what I would say, do you?

There are no scriptures (by command or concession) that require a devout man to yoke up with a lukewarm woman and take her as a bride.

If Christian men (confirmed bachelor/MGTOW)

a. Who rightly divide the word of Truth
b. Worship the Father in spirit and truth
c. Believe that marriage is honorable and the marriage bed is undefiled

...can't find, neither knows personally, or knows anyone who knows anyone personally who is in fellowship with a woman who believes in the inerrant word of Truth and isn't ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, and will live and die by the scriptures in Ephesian and 1 Peter as it concerns their mandated roles and responsibilities as helpmeet, wife, and mother...

..and he says, "oh well, I'll serve the Lord as a man who is single and celibate because I will not engage or enter into a fraudulent covenant, where the responsibility and accountability for its fruit falls squarely on my shoulders."

How is this man wrong? Even the Bible says 'as a dog returns to his own vomit, so is a fool who returns to his folly". It reads, "do not give your strength to women, or that which destroys kings". Why is he wrong for avoiding the covert christo-feminist whose "house is a highway to the grave, leading down to the chambers of death"?

Would such men (MGTOW, banjo, rodeo, E-I-E-I-O..) be "plumb fools" to give his heart and soul and protection and provision to the last 2 generations of women who are not required to surrender to such things.."perfecting Holiness in the Fear of Yahweh (God)?

What kind of dummy would do this? Would you consider a man selfish, who refused to be a fool?

Pedat Ebediyah said...

Part II

Pastor, believe it or not, Christian men are idealists...to a fault. They truly believe that if the Bible says they are to love their wives as Christ loves the Church, giving himself for it, dwelling with her according to knowledge, and regarding her as a joint-heir. The vast majority know that they are to honorably embrace this endeavor soberly, yet in the body of Christ of they err or stray from such, they will be called out and shamed for it. So they do it. This is called Moral Agency. More accurately, hyperagency.

NONE of what I wrote in the previous paragraphs applies to women. When Christian men took the Red Pill, they started to become cognizant of such things. Christian counselors, preachers, authors, bloggers seem to be the biggest misogynists of all: they promote and enable the lack of moral agency in women. (Hypoagency). Moreover, they do so in a twisted way by declaring their unfounded virtue thereof, which gives them zero incentive to walk worthy of that which they were called as helpmeet. Their indiscretions are glossed over by their church; their opportunism is rewarded by the state. It's brazen.

Serious consideration and CONCERTED EXAMINATION by Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers should be given to asking why and how feminine primacy is turning young and older men away from the beautiful mystery marriage.

Lastly, I'd skip the Jesus and Paul being MGTOW stuff. It's foolishness because they weren't MGTOW MGTOW is just the description of the response to decadence. Our Messiah and Apostle to the Gentiles should even be discussed this way. We should avoid being common and giving the appearance of capitalizing on a controversial subject by soiling their earthly ministries in such a way.

Your concern should be for why men of FAITH are opting out. This is very serious and important.

Moreover focusing on the men is unjust. It's an unjust weight and scale...which is an abomination to the Lord.

My Rabbi, Pastor, and Bishop colleagues are asking "what do I need to tell the women about this, when they complain about not finding a good Christian/Messianic man? Am I to tell them that there is something in their nature, spirit, attitude, and behavior that is causing men to perceive them as lacking in devotion to the things of God, causing them to be fearful of their commitment to the holiness and gravity of marriage?" The answer is YES.

This is the proper conversation to have. Asking or shaming the men into any risky endeavor is just plain silly. An honorable wife, who can find? No one, until their Fathers and Mothers, Apostles, Prophets, Evangelist, Pastors and Teachers are rightly dividing the word of truth, raising up Titus 2 women and guiding them in such a way as to be "suitable helpers".

This is very important, Pastor. If you're doing what I wrote in the paragraph above, then you're a good brother. Be sure your peers are doing the same. I've been in ministry for 25 years. It ain't like it used to be. And if you're in my age group (50 or older), then you know exactly what I'm talking about...I hope.

Focus your energy away from responding to secular MGTOWs. Find out what’s happening in the Body and use your gifts to make a difference.

SelfDefensiveChristianMan said...

I would exhort you to consider that this is a problem for you and a sinful behavior, like many pastors, from what I have observed: though I commend you for your mention of some general injustices against men, you are cowering away from what has forced MGTOW to exist (albeit in ways that should be more godly than they are): a healthy, reasonable exploration of women's sins against men and how to protect and restore men from them on every level, just as no one is showing a lack of gumption for doing with regards to men's sins against women. If you cower away from it, you contribute to forcing MGTOW to exist. I (personally) long for harmony and peace between genders, God's way, with mercy extended in both directions in so doing. I also deeply respect God's design of marriage and (I hope) you also respect the fact that celibacy is anything but sin. Paul's "selfish" comment was this: 1 Corinthians 7:28 "those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this." You cannot accuse someone of sin for a reaction of "marriage looks like too much trouble, so I refrain." Ultimately my service is to Christ.

If you are interested in some more perspective and some mutually respectful discussion in regards to MGTOW, I have a great deal of Bible-based writing on my site with a candid focus on the spiritual protection of men on various topics--lots of theology and exegeses. Indeed, love it or hate it, MGTOW has a good reason for existing and it is therefore growing. If "the church" decides to sleep on the job of some real injustices that men face and fail to respond to them, putting on the kid gloves when it comes to women's sins against men, I would encourage you to consider that the response from God is not one that is on the side that has failed to respond in love to men.

SelfDefensiveChristianMan said...

Blessings to you in Christ, pastor. I am first and foremost interested in my discipleship with my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, the Son of God who is also one with God.

You might call me a Christian MGTOW (as you say, it's difficult to define) who I can assure you is well-studied on the Scriptures and have a lot of experience with the "biblical gender roles" positions, rhetoric and theology. I also fellowship with other Christian MGTOWs (the movement is growing among Christians).

Unfortunately, some of your observations about the faults of the movement, particularly some notions of innate evil in women, are correct. Women are sinners as men, but women are also fearfully and wonderfully made and were created beautifully by God as Adam's helper.

I want to commend you for calling some attention to certain worldly injustices committed against men.

However, though you (rightly) declare that both men and women are sinners, I listened carefully to the tone of your rhetoric: "sinful interactions with women." I interpret this as another example of an ungodly trend in Christianity today that is more than pleased to discuss sins against women, oftentimes criticizing feminism as misguided at best and (to give credit) outright wicked.

Yet, I believe I perceived an ungodly fear in your wording that avoided outright saying it: women sin against men. There is an unmistakable failure within most of Christianity to confront this reality with the same zeal that it confronts women's sins against men.

What you're seeing within the manosphere is an explosion of the revelation that women sin against men too. Surely they'll say "did we ever claim they didn't?" No, but it's the kid gloves on the subject, to put it mildly, while it's taken of the utmost seriousness in the reverse case.

I do NOT justify the lack of integrity of MGTOWs regarding women as evil creations (i.e. just no ultimate good in them). But this is what happens when the bucket of icewater hits you: there is a WHOLE WORLD of sins that women commit against men - not to minimize the reverse! - that hits men like a tornado because of how sparse and how insincere the discussion is about it and so many realities of what men experience because of women's sins. Please take care to notice the distinction: I, personally, am not picking on women as if they are worse sinners.

Which gender gets the lion's share of discussion about (say) "he shouldn't treat you like that!" or "a good man treats you like 'x'" or "you need to protect yourself about 'x' sort of man's behavior"?

I love to point this out: Proverbs 31 was writing from a mother to a son. In love for him - just like every woman and her uncle and pet gerbil does for women "in love"- she is helping him understand what a godly woman is like, so he understand how she ought to behave and that "she does him good, not harm, all the days of her life."

I'll speak for myself: I'm not interested in putting down women. I am interested in this nonsense of shying away from the realities of women's sins against men for the sake of being restorative/protective

Remember Sampson? Strong man who could take down warriors by the hordes, but as soon as Satan sent a woman blatantly trying to destroy him, the man didn't have a clue what to do and that he was up against an enemy every bit as deadly and PROVED bent on destroying him.

paulmurray said...

There is a simple litmus test for churches. If a church performs marriages for women who are divorces, then it is a false church.

Jesus specifically states that a remarried woman (and the man who marries her) is committing adultery. Oh, divorce happens - sometimes it turns out a woman married an abuser, or a layabout - but remarriage is forbidden by Jesus himself. There aren't a lot of places in the New Testament that are as simply black-and-white as that, where a specific act is specifically identified as being sinful in and of itself.

To be saved, you must repent. Remarried women and the men who marry them are living in unconfessed, unrepented-of sin, and they will go to hell for it along with all the other adulterers.

If churches taught that, rather than the usual random happy stuff, and if women belived it and acted on it, young men might be more willing to risk their futures on them. As it stands, christian women divorce at pretty much the same rate as in the world, and God does nothing about it.

SelfDefensiveChristianMan said...

You know, pastor, just a follow-up, as I spoke briefly with another commenter.

Just in case this is worthwhile to you I think you might benefit to understand something else about a lot of men's groups' perception of pastors in light of the concerns brought forward.

First of all, are you able to say it yet? "Women sin against men". That is, graduating from "sinful interactions with women" as your sermon came the closest to coming to saying so?

Here's the deal, more and more men are assessing pastors as simple products of consumerism. In other words, you say what people want to hear much like a business appeals to a consumer (as one simply selling a product for money).

We know that modern women are nowhere near as fond of hearing about women's sins against men as they eat up endless discussion about men's sins/shortcomings to the loss of women and children.

(Titus 2:4, interestingly, supports the idea of women being taught to be good wives/mothers with NO corresponding command about men being taught to be good husbands/fathers)

If you are not an outright phony as a pastor - and the definition of a false prophet only interested in words that profit you personally - then maybe I can appeal to you as the way you come across: do you have integrity to stand for the truth? Because if you do, you might seriously consider snapping out of this attitude in which you dismiss other men who KNOW the word of God and have some biblical arguments as to why it is not being heard from figures such as yourself. I'm just saying, it is well worth your while.

If you have any genuine fear of the Lord, be advised that He will take the side of those who seek Him and know His word.

TheBibo Sez said...

Well said. I would add that the corrupted secular marriage laws further undermine women's accountability for their vows in marriage, leaving men unequally yoked compared to their wives. Christian men can discern a bad deal and reject it.

Unknown said...

Paul lived alone infact he said better if live like me Paul 1st mgtow

JR Rodriguez said...

Pastor you are part of the problem and I will demonstrate in a simple way. You claim you follow the Bible. Do you demand women to cover their heads at public worship as done for 2k years from a simple understanding of Paul, or do you violate Scripture after Vatican 2 caved to the feminists?
EISEGETE 2k years of Christianity to appease women, the world and fall in line with the vatican.
You sir have not authority to speak on gender roles after violating the outward sign every Sunday.

JR Rodriguez said...

Here's the first ever marriage counseling: "because you listened to your wife, cursed is the ground? "

When did you last preach the observation of Solomon that he had known one man in a thousand to be wise, but never a woman. That the wisest man, and the strongest man both brought down by women?
Are women all evil? No, sin entered by Adam, and abusive men abound. But in the Western modern culture, it is women who abuse most often, kill both born and unborn, and get sympathy.

JR Rodriguez said...

Few modern Churches have use for virile men, which is why, unlike all other religions, men have left. Your article lacks compassion or understanding and the uncovered women in Church are a visible fact that the Church is ashamed of the Gospel AND men, real men.
I'm 35 years married, as a virgin to a virgin, and soon will leave the PCA as they reconsider the role of women but I'm no mangina.

Gen Xer said...

MGTOW does not hold an anti-Christian view itself. Many of its followers DO, and again the church itself is the big pink elephant in the room of the reason WHY so many men out there today DO hold an anti-Christian view. MGTOW has nothing to do with it; and you in the Clergy on the Protestant or Catholic side don't want to hear it, or even accept your role in this.

First. I am born-again since 2009. I am involved in a (cough) "conservative" church that supposedly is about The Bible and "equipping" believers to be conformed Disciples for Christ.

It's a great mission statement, but the reality is:

Women Good. Man bad in church culture today...and if it isn't stated; boy it's implied.

I am willing to lay down my life for the Savior. I am not lukewarm. I believe the Bible. I know what I was delivered from.

What I don't believe is pastors telling me that the reason why I am "single" is because I sit at home, and play video games / live in mom's basement / addicted to porn / if I just asked out all the saintly-holy-beautiful-educated-creative-talented-smart-amazing women I would have a wife in a week.

Any single Christian man in church today knows this isn't true. And so do you.

MGTOW is an option for Christian men who DO believe. Who DO love. Who DO serve, and who would INDEED give it up for the Savior who indeed gave all to us

From the announcements, to the "contemporary" Christian music. All female-centric. The messages telling me to "man up" and then giving uplifting hope and justifying straight-up bad behavior by women....it is no wonder worldly men DON'T have anything to do with church, and many of the men who are there now (like myself) are quickly finding study groups, men who want to PRAY HARD and deeply........and meeting at HOME.

Until the "church" in general gets this, it will continue to decline.....and the REASON why there has not been a revival? The bride is FILTHY. In the Revelation According to John, the seven churches are called out......a stern warning to the "church" today.

Men are not allowed to lead unless it's the pastor and his gossipy wife...or a few deacons who don't have a clue.

MGTOW is growing in the church and if you folks with all the degrees, the expertise, and the Ego were doing your job....MGTOW would be a non issue.


thatguy263 said...

Well said, Gen Xer!

Anonymous said...

True. As a christian myself, single, i can testify to that. Another cryptonite element for today s "christian" woman is the word CHILDREN. Bring that up in a conversation after a few months of dating and you will see her run faster than a cheetah. It happened to me a few times.

Rex Bear said...

Dear Pastor, you seem to be a thoughtful and caring person but you are missing the forest for the trees. It is not my intent to blast you or try to impress you with long explanations so I will make it very simple. MGTOW is not what you say it is, you have defined it in such a way as to defeat it. I suspect you would not be offended if I called you a tradcon, yes? Tradcon's are invested in fixing the old system and honestly feel that this is what God wants them to do. So what is MGTOW? It is a realization by men that the old system is broken beyond repair and that a man will not benefit from participation in it as it stands. Men have gambled and lost time after time because the game is rigged. They have lost their families, children, status, money and future earnings.